Shalom! My name is Adam Pastor

Welcome to ADONI MESSIAH which means
"My Lord Messiah" -
a fitting epithet to who Jesus (or Yeshua) is!

Here, I attempt to present the Apostolic Truths according to the Scriptures, that there is
One GOD, the Father, namely, YAHWEH,
and One Lord, GOD's only begotten Son,
Yeshua the Messiah.

And that one day YAHWEH will send His Son back to Earth to inaugurate the Everlasting Kingdom of GOD



Enjoy!


Saturday, August 05, 2006

Trinity on Trial - The Verdict by K.N. Stovra

 

Trinity on Trial - The Verdict

Slightly edited version of this original writing by K.N. Stovra

"Do not bear false witness."

[Judge]: State your name

[Defendant]: Athanasius Trinitarian

[Crown Prosecutor]: Mr. Trinitarian, do you understand the charges?

Trinitarian: Yes, I most certainly do.

Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, do you believe Hades is the realm of the dead?

Trinitarian: Yes, however I do not personally believe this is where Christians go when they die but some of my brothers do believe this to be the case.

Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, do you believe it would be correct to say the inhabitants of Hades, the realm of the dead, are dead?

Trinitarian: Yes, obviously. It is the abode of the dead.

Crown: So they are not living but dead?

Trinitarian: Yes, obviously.

Crown: Could you describe for me the false antichrist teaching John the Beloved Apostle mentions in his first and second letters?

Trinitarian: Most certainly. Essentially, some false prophets were teaching that the "Christ" was a spiritual entity that appeared as a man incognito, that is, "the Christ entity" only appeared to be a man of flesh, but really was not himself that flesh that suffered and died. The "Christ" appeared in the body of the man named Jesus of Nazareth and at the point of his death, this spiritual entity - "Christ" - escaped from the cross. They believed the divine Christ could not suffer death because he was divine and so he left that humanity behind on the cross and the man Jesus was dead, but the spiritual persona that left him behind did not die. This is why John opens his first letter by indicating that the apostles had physically touched the Word of life, that is, they touched Christ’s flesh. And later John teaches them that anyone who does not confess Christ coming in the flesh is the spirit of the antichrist. John tells us at 1 John 4:2-3 and 2 John 1:7 these men were deceivers teaching in the spirit of the antichrist and this is how you can test for these deceiving spirits.

Crown: Very insightful and interesting Mr. Trinitarian. You don't believe anything like that do you?

Trinitarian: Oh, goodness no. We Trinitarians all believe Jesus Christ came in the flesh.

Crown: Are you sure about that Mr. Trinitarian?

Trinitarian: Absolutely.

Crown: Let me ask you one more time Mr. Trinitarian, are you sure that you don't believe anything like what you just described?

Trinitarian: Totally sure.

Crown: So you really do believe the person Jesus truly died and was truly dead?

Trinitarian: Absolutely.

Crown: Can God die and be that dead flesh Mr. Trinitarian?

Trinitarian: Absolutely not. Just as God cannot lie, God cannot die and be dead. God is life by definition. That is why Jesus took a human nature to himself - so he could die.

Crown: So you do believe Jesus Christ came in the flesh then Mr. Trinitarian?

Trinitarian: Absolutely.

Crown: And you also believe this Jesus, the Son of God, was also God the Son, the second person of the Trinity, correct?

Trinitarian: Absolutely.

Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, did you not already testify that God could not be dead?

Trinitarian: Absolutely.

Crown: Well Mr. Trinitarian, now you are telling us that this person who died and was dead and buried was God. Aren't you contradicting yourself Mr. Trinitarian?

Trinitarian: Oh goodness no. God did not die. The man Jesus died and was dead and buried.

Crown: So, the Son of God was two people Mr. Trinitarian? There was one person who was God the Son and another person who was a man named Jesus of Nazareth? And the person Jesus was dead but the person God the Son was not?

Trinitarian: No, no. You don't understand. Jesus Christ was one person who had two natures: one divine and one human. He was fully God and fully man.

Crown: So then Mr. Trinitarian, there is only one person then. Is that correct?

Trinitarian: Yes, absolutely.

Crown: Are you sure?

Trinitarian: No doubt about it.

Crown: So who was dead and buried in the tomb, Mr. Trinitarian?

Trinitarian: I already told you. The man Jesus was dead in the tomb.

Crown: So God the Son was dead in the tomb then? Is that correct?

Trinitarian: No, God the Son was elsewhere. I don't know where he was personally. Some say he preached the gospel to the dead spirits in Hades and others say he was in heaven.

Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, now we are back to two people again. We have one person Jesus who is the dead man in the tomb and another person who is God the Son who is "elsewhere." Mr. Trinitarian, was Jesus Christ one person or two?

Trinitarian: One.

Crown: Well now Mr. Trinitarian, we seem to have a little problem here don't we? Where was that one person? Was the person Jesus dead in the tomb or not?

Trinitarian: Yes, he was in the tomb!

Crown: So God was that dead flesh in the tomb, Mr. Trinitarian?

Trinitarian: No, God cannot die, or be dead! God the Son died in his humanity but he himself did not die.

Crown: What exactly do you mean by this phrase, "God died 'in his humanity'," Mr. Trinitarian?

Trinitarian: God the Son had two natures. He did not die in his divinity. He died in his humanity, in his human nature.

Crown: I see. So what you are saying is that a person didn't really die but a nature this person happened to possess died and was dead? In other words, the nature he owned died and was dead but he himself wasn't dead?

Trinitarian: No, no. Jesus died and was truly dead. You aren't going to catch me with your clever words. If I said a person didn't die then I would be admitting the person Jesus didn't die. No, Jesus died but he died in his humanity, not in his divinity.

Crown: I see. So a person did truly die and was truly dead?

Trinitarian: Yes. Death is separation of the spirit from the body. In that respect, Jesus died and was dead.

Crown: I see. So God the Son did not die but separated from the man Jesus who did die and was dead? That sounds awfully familiar Mr. Trinitarian. Where have we heard that idea before?

Trinitarian: One person, two natures.

Crown: Uh huuuh.... so is this person Jesus then the same person as "God the Son?"

Trinitarian: Yes.

Crown: So "God the Son" died correct?

Trinitarian: The human nature of God the Son died and was dead.

Crown: Ah! I see now Mr. Trinitarian. God's human nature died on the cross and was dead and buried. But the person God the Son did not himself die and was not that dead flesh but was "elsewhere." Is that correct?

Trinitarian: Correct.

Crown: So no one was really in the tomb then, right Mr. Trinitarian? It was just a body of flesh, a "human nature" laying in the tomb right Mr. Trinitarian?

Trinitarian: Technically I suppose I would have to say God's body was in the tomb. The person God the Son was not in the tomb – He was elsewhere.

Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, would you open this Bible and read for me Matthew 12:40.

Trinitarian: For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Crown: Was he mistaken, Mr. Trinitarian?

Trinitarian: Jesus is never mistaken. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. It sounds to me like he was preaching to the spirits in Hades there in the heart of the earth.

Crown: Is that where Hades is located, Mr. Trinitarian?

Trinitarian: Jesus is never mistaken, so I would have to say, 'Yes.'

Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, could you tell me precisely when the person, who is God the Son, left his human nature to preach in Hades, or describe that moment when he went "elsewhere"?

Trinitarian: Certainly. Death is defined in the Bible as the separation of the soul from the body.

Crown: Spirit or soul, Mr. Trinitarian? Which one?

Trinitarian: Well that depends who you ask; some say they are different, some say they are the same thing. Essentially, the spiritual part of a man separates from his body at death.

Crown: I see. So this is why the person God the Son himself was elsewhere and not dead in the tomb? Is that correct?

Trinitarian: Yes, that is correct.

Crown: So the person who is God the Son was not that dead flesh in the tomb? Is that correct?

Trinitarian: Yes, that is correct.

Crown: Are you sure?

Trinitarian: Yes, absolutely.

Crown: So essentially you are saying the person was not that flesh but lived in that flesh as if it were a possession of his, say, like living in a house he owns? Or like say, a tabernacle or tent? Is that correct?

Trinitarian: Essentially, yes.

Crown: So then Mr. Trinitarian, nobody was really dead in the tomb correct? Otherwise we would have two persons on our hands, right Mr. Trinitarian? One in the tomb and one "elsewhere?"

Trinitarian: Essentially, yes.

Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, I have some passages for you to read for us. Would you read them please?

Trinitarian: Certainly, I love to read God's word. It is truth.

So the soldiers came and broke the legs of the one, and of the other who had been crucified with him. But when they came to JESUS and saw that HE was already dead, they did not break HIS legs. But one of the soldiers pierced HIS side with a spear. (John 19:32-34).

Therefore order the tomb to be secured until the third day, lest his disciples go and steal HIM away, and tell the people, "HE has risen from the dead, and the last deception will be worse than the first." (Matthew 27:64).

Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb where no one had ever been laid. So because of the Jewish day of Preparation, as the tomb was close at hand, they laid JESUS there. (John 19:42).

And when he learned from the centurion that HE was dead, he granted the body to Joseph. And he bought a linen shroud, and taking HIM down, wrapped him in the linen shroud, and laid HIM in a tomb which had been hewn out of the rock; and he rolled a stone against the door of the tomb. Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where HE was laid. (Mark 15:45-47).

So Mary Magdalene ran, and went to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one whom Jesus loved, and said to them, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid HIM"... Peter then came out with the other disciple, and they went toward the tomb. They both ran but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first and stooping to look in, he saw the linen cloths lying there, but he did not go in. Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb; he saw the linen cloths lying, and the napkin, which had been on HIS head, not lying with the linen cloths but rolled up in a place by itself. Then the other disciple, who reached the tomb first, also went in, and he saw and believed. For as yet they did not know the Scripture, that HE must rise from the dead. Then the disciples went back to their homes. But Mary stood weeping outside the tomb, and as she wept she stooped to look into the tomb and she saw two angels in white, sitting where the body of Jesus had lain, one at the head and one at the feet. They said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping?" She said to them, "Because they have taken away My Lord, and I do not know where they have laid HIM." (John 20:2-14).

But the angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid; for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. HE is not here; for HE has risen, as he said. Come, see the place where HE lay. Then go quickly and tell his disciples that HE has risen from the dead." (Matthew 28:5-7).

While they were going, behold, some of the guard went into the city and told the chief priests all that had taken place. And when they had assembled together with the elders and taken counsel, they gave a sum of money to the soldiers and said, "Tell the people, 'His disciples came by night and stole HIM away while we were asleep.' " (Matthew 28:11-13 RSV).

And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, so that they might go and anoint HIM. ... And he said to them, "Do not be amazed; you seek JESUS OF NAZARETH, WHO was crucified. HE has risen, HE is not here; see the place where they laid HIM." (Mark 16:1-6).

Crown: Well, well, Mr. Trinitarian, it appears the Bible indicates there was a person in the tomb! What do you say now, Mr. Trinitarian?

Trinitarian: There was no person in the tomb. That is just a manner of speaking. Jesus is God the Son and God the Son is Jesus. God the Son himself was elsewhere and his dead body was in the tomb.

Crown: Well, well, Mr. Trinitarian, the Bible tells us there was a person in the tomb! And you disagree, Mr. Trinitarian?

Trinitarian: There was no person in the tomb. That is just a manner of speaking. God cannot be dead and God the Son was elsewhere.

Crown: I see. So what you are saying then, and please do correct me if I am wrong here, is that since you define death as the separation of the soul or spirit, the spiritual person, from the body; so that the person Jesus, who is the selfsame one person as God the Son, went out from his body and went either to Hades and preached, or went "elsewhere," and therefore God the Son was not that dead flesh left hanging on the cross or dead in the tomb. Since this person is God the Son and God cannot die or be dead you insist God the Son must have been elsewhere and not dead in the tomb. Is that correct, Mr. Trinitarian?

Trinitarian: Well I wouldn't put it that way.

Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, I have some more passages for you to read for us. Would you read them please?

Trinitarian: Certainly, I love to read God's word.

And about the ninth hour JESUS cried with a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken ME?" And some of the bystanders hearing it said, "This man is calling Elijah." And one of them immediately ran and took a sponge, filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave it to him to drink. But the others said, "Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to save him." And JESUS cried again with a loud voice and yielded up HIS spirit. (Matthew 27:46-50).

When JESUS had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished"; and HE bowed HIS head and gave up HIS spirit. (John 19:30).

Then JESUS, crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into your hands I commit MY spirit!" And having said this HE breathed HIS last. (Luke 23:46).

Crown: Well, well, Mr. Trinitarian, you say Jesus was the spirit who went up from his body, which he left behind dead on the cross but it appears the Bible indicates there that the spirit in Jesus went up from him and left him behind dead on the cross. It seems you teach exactly the reverse to what the Bible teaches. What do you say to that, Mr. Trinitarian?

Trinitarian: That is just a manner of speaking and perspective. God the Son was elsewhere. Those passages show us that the spiritual person died and went elsewhere at death since death is defined as the separation of the soul from the body.

Crown: Well, well, Mr. Trinitarian, do you expect us to believe such a story? You say the spiritual person separated and left the dead body on the cross and the Bible says completely the opposite, that the spirit in that person was yielded up to God and he, that person, was left dead on the cross.

Trinitarian: That is just a manner of speaking and perspective. God the Son was elsewhere. Those passages show us that the spiritual person died and went elsewhere at death since death is defined as the separation of the soul from the body.

Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, would you read for me John 1:1 in the Bible there?

Trinitarian: Most certainly.

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

See, it's right there, Jesus is God.

Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, would you read for me John 1:14 in the Bible there?

Trinitarian: Most certainly.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Crown: Do you believe that, Mr. Trinitarian?

Trinitarian: Most certainly. It is the Word of God.

Crown: To clarify, the Son of God, the Word, and Jesus Christ are all the selfsame person. Is that correct?

Trinitarian: Yes, that is correct.

Crown: So you believe the Word himself was a person then became that flesh that died and was dead in the tomb?

Trinitarian: Most certainly not. The Word was not himself that flesh itself. The Word did not change into flesh and leave his divine nature behind. Rather, the Word assumed flesh as a nature to his other divine nature and so he then had two natures.

Crown: I see. To clarify then, you are saying the Word did not really himself become that flesh that died and was dead in the tomb, but added that flesh as another nature to himself, a possession so to speak, so that he could live and die as a man. Is that correct?

Trinitarian: Yes, but I wouldn't put it that way.

Crown: So then to clarify again; the Word was God the Son and God the Son was not that flesh that was dead in the tomb. Is that correct?

Trinitarian: Yes, that is correct.

Crown: So then to clarify again; the Word who was God was a person who was not that flesh that was dead in the tomb although he did live in that flesh, or with that flesh, and have that flesh as his nature while he was alive. Is that correct?

Trinitarian: Yes, that is correct.

Crown: Would you remind us again about the antichrist teaching John was discussing?

Trinitarian: Yes, certainly. Some false prophets were teaching that "the Christ" was a spiritual entity that appeared as a man incognito, that is, "the Christ entity" only appeared to be a man of flesh, but really was not himself that flesh that suffered and died. He appeared in the body of the man named Jesus and at the point of his death this spiritual entity "Christ" escaped from the cross. John tells us at 1 John 4:2-3 and 2 John 1:7 these men were deceivers teaching in the spirit of the antichrist.

Crown: Sound familiar Mr. Trinitarian?

Trinitarian: Jesus was dead.

Crown: And the person God the Son, who was not dead, was elsewhere. Is that correct?

Trinitarian: Yes, that is correct.

Crown: So what you are saying is that a living person was in the realm of the dead then. Mr. Trinitarian, I thought you indicated this person died and that anyone in Hades, the realm of the dead, was dead?

Trinitarian: Well no, not God the Son. God the Son cannot die and be dead. He did experience death in that he was in a dying body and separated from that dying body at the point of death. He was a living soul preaching in Hades the realm of the dead.

Crown: I see. So what we have then is a dead body in the tomb and a living person preaching to dead persons and as such God the Son is not dead but living. Is that correct?

Trinitarian: Well if you say he went to Hades when he died, Yes. Otherwise, he was just "elsewhere," perhaps heaven.

Crown: I see. So Jesus who was God and is the Word of God was not himself that flesh that died then. Rather this person owned his flesh and his flesh died on him on the cross. Is that correct?

Trinitarian: Yes, the person was God the Son and God cannot die. His flesh was simply his human nature from which he separated at death.

Crown: Mr. Trinitarian, that will be all.

[Judge]: You may step down, Mr. Trinitarian. Thank you for your testimony.