WHY?

WHY?

Why Remove Comments If They Can Be Refuted?

 

 

In the last month, I came across two blog sites by two different Oneness believers who were sharing their beliefs.

I did what I thought was the right and polite thing to do, that is, respond to their posts; in addressing some of the erroneous assertions made, in light of their Oneness teaching.
Their response? They deleted my comments! Now that's not very nice! Is it?
Oh well, it is the blog administrator's choice. :-)

However, for those of you who are truth-seekers, what follows are my responses which were deleted. I hope and pray that they may be of some edification to the reader.

 

Now, the only real difference between Oneness & Trinitarian doctrines are:

• Trinitarians believe that Jesus Christ is the incarnation of "God the Son," the second person of the Godhead
• whilst Oneness believe that Jesus Christ is the incarnation of "God the Father"
• Both believe that Jesus has a dual nature i.e. a human & divine nature
• Both believe that Jesus is 100% God & 100% man - the Godman
• So, in light of the above, both doctrines are indeed erroneous!

---

 

What follows is a synopsis of the posts by both writers which I came across.

Their points will be in green, whilst my responses will be in black:

ONENESS BELIEVER 1

The first writer was writing about Naomi and Ruth from the Book of Ruth; especially

Ruth's remark that:

"Your God Will Be My God!"

"But Ruth replied, Don't ask me to leave you and

turn back.  Wherever you go, I will go; wherever you

live, I will live.  Your people will be my people, and

your God will be my God."

(Ruth 1:16)

 

 

The writer then expounded on the wonderful character of Ruth; and her wonderful choice to belong to Naomi's people and to worship Naomi's God. AMEN!!

As the writer's post continued, the writer sadly made the following statements:

There are a world of Ruth's ready to be loved, ready to hear about the One true God, Jesus Christ our Lord ...

There is only ONE God and His name is Jesus Christ.  There is only ONE God who died and shed His blood for all mankind; His name is Jesus Christ.  There is only ONE God who rose the third day after death; His name is Jesus Christ. ...

 

In light of the above, I chose to respond with the following (extract from my) remarks which were all subsequently deleted :-

 

MY RESPONSE:

Greetings ***

Compare Ruth's wondrous words,
"your God will be my God"
with what our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ declared:
John 20.17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
but go to my brethren, and say unto them,
I ascend unto my Father, and your Father;
and to my God, and your God.

Did you see that?

Jesus is about to ascend to the very same GOD
which his great-great-great ... grandmother came to believe in!!

You state "the One true God, Jesus Christ our Lord";
but with all due respect,
look again to whom Jesus declared is the only true GOD:
(John 17:1) These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, ...
(John 17:3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus identified his Father
as the only true GOD & the only GOD
[John 17.3, 5.44]

Jesus worshiped the very same GOD that both Naomi and David worshiped;
and teaches us to worship that very same GOD,
namely the Father.
[John 4.22-24]

Jesus therefore is not the true GOD,
rather ...

(1 Thess. 1:9-10) For they themselves show of us what manner of entering in we had unto you,
and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

(1 Tim 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus;

... Jesus is the human Son of the living and true GOD.

 

---

 

ONENESS BELIEVER 2

The second writer actually quoted my first response in full!! (Although the writer did not include the links I added from my own blog).

My first response was in answer to the question,

 

Oneness or Trinity: Which is it?

whereby I answered

 

NEITHER!

(My first response is quoted in full, in the Oneness writer's response below.)

 

The Oneness writer then replied with eight points.

So I in kind, responded to the writer's eight points. Alas! My entire response was deleted.

What follows therefore is

the second writer's points in green, whilst my response is in black:

 

 

Jesus: God Almighty or Just An Anointed Man?

I recently received a comment ... and would like to share the comment and my response with everyone.  This is a great discussion and I think it is very important that we understand what we believe.  As our belief in One God has been challenged as pagan and not being scriptural, I’d like to share a few notes on why I believe what I do and why Jesus is undeniably God.

 

Here’s the post one of our readers shared:

 

Greetings ***

Oneness or Trinity: Which is it?

Answer: NEITHER!!

Sadly, both Oneness and trinity doctrines try to make Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah our Lord, into Almighty GOD!!

And both doctrines state that you must believe that the Lord Jesus is Almighty GOD to be saved!!

In this regard, both doctrines do err and are scripturally wrong.

IMHO!

 

Both doctrines appeared hundreds of years after the ascension of Christ. Both doctrines try to explain how Jesus can be
both God and man at the same time!! The Godman!!

But the original faith which was once delivered unto the saints [Jude 3] did not suffer from this problem.

 

The original faith has always been
that there is solely ONE GOD,

the Father.

And Jesus of Nazareth, is the one man, the one human being

whom Almighty GOD raised from the dead,

made him, both Lord and Christ,

and exalted him to His right hand.

Hence, Jesus of Nazareth is the Lord Jesus Christ,

a man approved of Almighty GOD, who is currently at the right hand of the ONE GOD in the heavens.
Whom we await for his return.

(1 Cor 8:4) ... there is none other God but one.
(1 Cor 8:6) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him;
and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

(1 Tim 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus;

(1 Th 1:9-10) For they themselves show of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols

to serve the living and true God;

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus,

which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Hundreds of years after the pure, true, apostolic faith was propagated;
Greek, Hellenistic and pagan philosophy/doctrines changed the human Jesus

into a demigod then into a godman.
And in response, both the doctrines of the trinity and Oneness tried to solve this self-inflicted problem!

The solution therefore, is to return to the pure faith and doctrine as taught in the Scriptures:

that there is solely ONE GOD, the Father.
And there is solely one man, one human,

whom the ONE GOD has made
"Lord of all", the man Messiah Jesus.

And indeed the day is coming where ...
(Phil 2:11) And that every tongue should confess

that Jesus Christ is Lord,

to the glory of God the Father.

Here’s Just a Few Notes On Why I Believe that Jesus is God Almighty, Manifest in the Flesh:

Dear Brother,

I admire your passion and belief in the oneness of God.  I do differ with you, however, in the belief of who that God is.  You see, there can be no doubt that Jesus is the Almighty God incarnate. 

So that you can better understand why I believe this, I’ve jotted down a few questions for you:

1) First, what shall we do with John 8:19? "Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also." 

2) What shall we do with John 14:7? "If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him."  Neither you nor I can say the same about our fathers.  If you have seen me, you have not seen my father.  If I have seen you, I might see a man who looks similar to his father but I have not seen your father.  Jesus was trying to explain to his followers who he truly was.

3) What shall we do with the bold statement of Jesus in John 10:30, saying "I and my Father are one."  In this sense, the flesh is terming its Creator as its father.

4) What shall we do with John 14:8-9?  "Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?"  Jesus is asking in disbelief.  In essence, he is asking ‘You mean you’ve seen the works that I do and you don’t know that I am Almighty God?’  In the next few verses, Jesus even expounds on the works being done as not having been done by a fleshly person but by deity.  He says, "whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."  Essentially, he is saying, I will perform the miraculous if you call on the name of Jesus because I want you to see that this is God Almighty at work.

5) What shall we do with Isaiah 9:6?  "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."  How is it that this baby Jesus, born in a stable, is called the Everlasting Father and the Mighty God by Isaiah and yet you say that Jesus was just a man and was not God or the Father of Creation?  Hmm, I think your disagreement is not with me or with oneness believers.  It is with Isaiah and Jesus so far.

6) What shall we do with the entire first chapter of John?

Verse 1:  "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."  Here, we find that the Word is God the Creator of all things.

Word=God the Creator or Father of Creation

Verse 3: "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."  There isn’t another creator.  The Word is it!

Verse 4: "In him was life; and the life was the light of men."  So the Word is the Light!

Verse 6: We learn here about John the Baptist.  "There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.  The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.  He was not that Light-"  So John bears witness of the Light-who is the Creator!  Who does John introduce?  Jesus!

Verse 10: The scripture begins describing this Light, who is the Word from verse 1:  "He was in the world, and the world was made by him [Creator], and the world knew him not.  He came unto his own, and his own received him not."  The Creator came to his own-to live amongst his creation-and they rejected him-sounds strangely reminiscent of Calvary, right?

Verse 14: This scripture reveals that the Word, which is the Creator, which is the Light-.is Jesus Christ. 

Word = Creator = Father = Light = Jesus

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

Notice, the Word or Almighty God became flesh.  Only by becoming flesh could we see the glory, grace, and truth of who God is.  The term ‘begotten’ is often misunderstood.  Yes, it can mean giving birth to but it also means created by.  The flesh was a created vessel, made specifically for God to indwell.

Verse 18: "No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."  Let us understand this passage:

* No one has seen the spirit of God.  Why?  As John 4:24 says, "God is spirit."  Spirits cannot be seen as they lack properties such as flesh and blood.

* Jesus became the vehicle through which we could see God.  He was ‘declared’ by the bodily presence.  Declare does not just mean to state or say something; it also means to "make manifest or visible" or "to reveal."  Check your dictionary!

* Otherwise, if God were not manifest in the flesh, how could Acts 20:28 be true?  The text says that God "hath purchased [the Church] with his own blood."  Where could a spirit get blood from?

7) Moving on in our study here.   What shall we do with John the Baptist’s introduction of Jesus in John 1:30, "This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me."  How could Jesus be before John? 

John’s mother, Elizabeth, was pregnant and gave birth to John before Mary gave birth to Jesus so, physically, John came before Jesus-.but supernaturally, Jesus was before all flesh as the Creator! 

As Jesus stated in John 8:23, "Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world."  If he was simply a human being-how could he not be of this world.  The word ‘of’ means to come from.

Furthermore, God in the Old Testament was known as the ‘I Am.’  You can see Exodus 3:14 for an example.  Jesus repeatedly identified himself as the ‘I Am’ in the New Testament.

For instance, in John 8:24, Jesus said, "if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."

Bible scholars often add "he" after the words "I am" to assist with readability; this is why the word "he" is italicized in these versions.  This means that the original translation would have read, "If ye believe not that I AM, ye shall die in your sins."

John 8:28 is another example.  Our versions state "Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he."

The words "that" and "he" are italicized, meaning they were added for readability.  What the phrase actually states is "When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know I AM."  In essence, when Jesus gave His life on the cross and was ascended up into glory, then they would understand He was God Almighty.

The examples go on and on.  But I would be remiss not to add this conversation between Jesus and the Jews who were asking who he truly was.

In John 8:56-58, Jesus says, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM."

Why didn’t Jesus say, "Before Abraham was, I was?"  Because He is eternal God-He always IS!

7) Having discussed John 1, now what shall we do with the prophecies foretelling of Jesus’ birth?  What shall we do with Isaiah 9:6?

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

This infant, born in a stable, is called the Mighty God and the Everlasting Father.  Apparently, those who do not believe that Jesus is the Eternal and Only God are not disagreeing with me or with other oneness believers.  They are simply disagreeing with Isaiah and Jesus himself.  How much simpler can God say it?

8) Final question: What shall we do with 1 Timothy 3:16?

Scholars denote that when Timothy referenced "God," he was certainly speaking of the same God referred to in the Old Testament.

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory."

That sounds an awful lot like my Jesus!  I’m so glad that I know Him!

Isn’t it time we lifted Him up in praise as the God he truly is and won the lost?

Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

* He was lifted up on a cross from the earth once so that His blood could redeem us.

* Now, it’s time to lift Him up with our belief and our praise as God-rather than man-so that our world can be turned upside down and brought back into reconciliation with Him!

MY RESPONSE:

Greetings ***

Thanks for your reply?
Jesus: God Almighty or An Anointed Man?

Well, let's open up with Scripture:

(1 Tim 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus;

There you go!
That's was Paul's (as well as the early church's) confession and belief.

The one mediator between the ONE GOD and mankind, was:
the man ('Christ' meaning 'anointed') Jesus!
So yes, Jesus, scripturally, is most definitely
an anointed man.
That was whom 'the Messiah'
was always (scripturally) meant to be.
And in John 17.3,
Christ Jesus most clearly identifies
the Father as the only true GOD;
and in John 5.44 he identifies
the Father as the only GOD.

Also, you forgot in your quote of my post
to include a link I supplied:
60 questions on the Godhead

whereby some of your questions were already addressed!!

Let's proceed:


1) First, what shall we do with John 8:19?
Answer: Read the context!
John 8.15 Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. 16 And yet if I judge, my judgment is true:
for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. 17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. 19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

Jesus clearly states he is not alone. He also quotes the Scriptures which speak of TWO witnesses.
Then Jesus clearly states:
that he is one witness and
his Father is the other witness!
That makes TWO!
One man and ONE GOD.
(Compare 1 Tim 2.5)

If they had known Jesus, why would they have known the Father also? Because:
Matt 11.27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

The Son of GOD is the revealer of the ONE GOD, the Father.


2) What shall we do with John 14:7?
Answer: Colossians 1.15
Jesus is the Image of the invisible GOD.
Seeing that Jesus is the One, Invisible GOD's
Representative and Agent;
to see Christ in action is to see
the Invisible GOD in action
who is working through him.
[John 14.10, Acts 2.22, 10.38]

Jesus, is the ONE, Invisible GOD's
Ultimate Representative and Agent,
the express image of GOD's person/substance.
[Heb 1.3; cp. 2 Cor. 4.4]

So to see Jesus is to see the Father,
because Christ is His image.
However, an image of someone/something is not identical to the person or thing it represents - rather an image is a representation.

Also Christ's followers knew the difference between GOD and man;
besides GOD is not a man
[Num 23.19; see also John 4.24]

3) What shall we do with the bold statement of Jesus in John 10:30, saying "I and my Father are one."
(This is already addressed by point No. 52, in the above link)

Answer: We compare it with Christ's bold prayer concerning his disciples/followers in
John Chapter 17.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world,
and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me,
that they may be one, as we are.
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

So just as Christ and his Father are 'one'; he prays for the same 'oneness' concerning his followers
i.e. oneness in unity of will and purpose.


4) What shall we do with John 14:8-9?
(Addressed by point No. 9, in the above link)

Jesus rather in essence, is asking:
"You mean you've seen the works that
my Father does
(verse 10: the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works);

and you don't realize who I am? Have you not yet realized that I am indeed in the Father, and the Father dwells in me?
Have you not realized that all the words I speak
I have not spoken them of myself, but the Father has given me what to speak?
(Compare Deut 18.18-19; John 12.48-50)

Therefore the very works testify that I am who I have always claimed to be:
the Messiah, the Son of GOD!
And as such, I truly declare/reveal/show the Father;
to see me 'work' is in fact,
to see the ONE GOD, the Father,
who dwells in me, 'work'!
In essence therefore, to see me,
is to see the Father;
because as His Son,
the Father dwells in me and I in Him!!
In doing so, I am showing you the Father."


No talk of 'flesh' or such like here.
Rather GOD dwells in him, and GOD testifies by His works,
that Jesus is indeed His Son,
the promised Messiah and Prophet,
as promised in the Scriptures.


5) What shall we do with Isaiah 9:6?
(Addressed by point No. 15, in the above link)

See also Isaiah 9.6

6) What shall we do with the entire first chapter of John?
What is John's context?

Answer: The word of GOD!
That is, all things came into existence through the word of GOD.
GOD spoke and IT was done!

Compare Psalm 33.6 By the word of YAHWEH were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. ... 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

John is stating the very same thing.
The new revelation however is the fact that
(John 1.14);
that same word of GOD was made flesh
resulting in the conception of
Jesus the Messiah, the Son of GOD.
Jesus, therefore, is what the word of GOD became!
The word of GOD made flesh!

Yes, that word, that 'light' - became flesh
resulting in the person of Jesus of Nazareth,
the Son of GOD.

That doesn't make Jesus, the Creator;
rather that makes him,
the word of the Creator made flesh!

Even Jesus acknowledged that his Father is the Creator:
[Mark 10.6, 13.19; Matt. 19:4];

So, yes, GOD's [spoken] word became flesh; not GOD Himself!

Rather the Creator's/Father's
Word/Light became flesh
which = Jesus;
Jesus is therefore what the Creator's word/light became!

Now we ought to believe Gabriel
(There are consequences for not believing him
i.e. Luke 1.17ff)

Gabriel declared: Luke 1.35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee:
therefore also that holy thing which shall be born [begotten] of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Who was begotten by the power of
GOD's holy spirit? Jesus!
So according to Gabriel, what does that make Jesus?
The Son of GOD.

Gabriel is not speaking about 'flesh' -
Gabriel is rather speaking about a 'son' ... a special Son.
Therefore the man Jesus, the son of GOD;
is a created vessel, whereby the ONE GOD, dwells!

Hence: 2 Cor 5.19
GOD was in Christ
(Not GOD was Christ)
Also Col 1.19
For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell.

Again, Jesus in light of John 1.18,
is the image of the invisible GOD;
and an image of a thing is not the actual thing itself - it is a representation.

See also John 1

(Acts 20.28 - see point 59 in the aforementioned link)


7a) ... What shall we do with John the Baptist’s introduction of Jesus in
John 1:30, ... How could Jesus be before John?

Because Jesus is the Messiah, he is therefore
before John in the sense of preeminence and foreordination;
GOD foreordained Jesus before the foundation of the world
[1 Pet 1.20]
to be the Son of GOD.
As such Jesus is John's (as well as our) superior.
It is in that sense that he was preferred before John as well as
preferred before Abraham i.e. John 8.58

7b)... If he was simply a human being - how could he not be of this world.

In the same manner that Christ's disciples are not of the world?
What, are his disciples not human beings!!
John 15.19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

7c) Concerning John 8.58

Please see:
Is Jesus the "I AM?"

Did Jesus really claim to be God in John 8:58? Or is your translation misleading you?

Now look again at John 8.24.
If has you are implying that Jesus declared that he was the ‘I Am’ in the sense of Exodus 3.14; that is, he was Almighty GOD;
and unless one believes that, one will die in their sins!
Then why would his audience then ask ...
25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou?

You claim, that Jesus is telling them, that he is 'GOD Almighty';
then why ask, Who are you?
That doesn't make any sense, does it? Be honest!

Now look at Jesus' reply?
... And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

Now I ask you: where did Jesus ever say from the beginning of the gospel to this point,
that he was GOD Almighty?
Where?


Rather, Jesus claimed to be the Messiah, the Son of GOD!
So ... unless one believes that he is the Christ,
the Son of GOD, one will die in their sins.
And indeed after Jesus was lifted up i.e. crucified;
when GOD the Father raised him from the dead, he was declared indeed,
to be the Son of GOD!
Rom. 1.4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

So for example, after Paul had an encounter with the Lord Jesus, what did Paul believe and declare:

Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said,
Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
21 But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?
22 But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.


7d) Having discussed John 1, now what shall we do with the prophecies foretelling of Jesus’ birth? What shall we do with Isaiah 9:6?
(See above - also addressed by point No. 15, in the aforementioned link)


8) Final question: What shall we do with 1 Timothy 3:16?
Please view 1 Timothy 3.16

Thank you *** for your reply and thank you for your precious time.


Yours In Messiah

From Oneness to One