Did Jesus really claim to be God in John 8:58? Or is your translation misleading you?

Did Jesus really claim to be God in John 8:58?

Or is your translation misleading you?

by “Theocrat”

Peter wrote: “I’m still waiting to hear from someone

why the Pharisees picked up stones to stone Jesus if it

wasn’t for this kind of blasphemous self-identification in

John 8:58.”

Now here’s an offer I can’t refuse! I assume by this

that you are taking the standard line on John 8:58, that

Jesus was claiming to be the God of Exodus 3:14. This

assertion is based on a kind of “translation theology,”

which isn’t borne out in the original language.

In the LXX [Septuagint] (Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible

used often by the New Testament writers), at Exodus 3:14

Yahweh declares “ego eimi o ohn” — “I am he that exists.”

The addition of the Greek “o ohn” (the existing one)

is needed to reflect the fact that the

Hebrew has the word “ehyeh” — “I will be.”

In John 8:58 Jesus only says “ego eimi” (I am he). On this

basis it isn’t really fair to the text to force an

unambiguous reference to Exodus 3:14. Jesus did not

say “I am who I am,” and so he does not say “I am

God.” Jesus said “I am he.”

Anyone could say “I am” or “I am he” without any

allusion to a claim of divinity. ... Another more biblical

example of this is found in John 9:9 where the man born

blind says “ego eimi” — I am he. None of these

individuals is claiming to be the Exodus God.

So “ego eimi” in John 8:58 is neither God’s name

nor an exclusively divine title. But if Jesus isn’t

claiming to be God, what was he understood to have

said that caused such offense? The answer lies in the

dialogue leading up to his statement. In the verses

immediately preceding we see that this isn’t the first

time Jesus has said “ego eimi” in this exchange. He has

already said it in verse 24.

(This calls into further question the widely

asserted notion that the words “ego eimi” were

understood by Jesus’ hearers to be a claim of

“divinity,” i.e. a reference to Exodus 3:14. Instead of

seizing upon this as the long awaited and much sought

after grounds to accuse him, they respond by asking,

“Who are you?” (v. 25). Obviously Jesus has not

identified himself sufficiently by this statement for them

to know what the “he” in “I am he” referred to.)

Reading on from verse 25, the discourse moves to

Abraham. “How can you claim to offer the life of the

age to come?” they ask Jesus. “Even Abraham himself is

dead; surely you’re not claiming to be greater than he!”

(v. 52-53).

Next, they misunderstand Jesus’ statement in

verse 56 — “Abraham rejoiced to see my day” — by

reading too much into it, because in verse 57 they accuse

Jesus of claiming to have seen Abraham! He never said

that. They had misunderstood him. Neither did he say

that Abraham had seen him — only that Abraham had

rejoiced to see his Messianic day. Abraham, having

believed the Gospel preached to him by God (Gal. 3.8)

rejoiced in hope, looking forward to the “day of Christ,”

as many Jews had done.

It is in response to this misunderstanding that Jesus

makes his statement “Before Abraham was, I am he.”

Notice however that he did not say “I was before

Abraham” or “Before Abraham was, I was.”

The present tense “I am” in reference to the past

(“before Abraham was”) simply does not work as a

stand-alone sentence. Jesus did not say, we repeat, “I

was alive before Abraham.” He said, “Before Abraham

came to be, I am he.”

Jesus’ “I am he” only makes sense if Jesus is

referring back to some statement he has made

previously about his present status with respect to

the patriarch. I would suggest that Jesus is expanding

on his statement in verse 56 by explaining how, in spite

of his not being 50 years old, Abraham could still have

rejoiced to see his day.

Bringing the two together what we get is:

“Before Abraham was, I am he…whose day Abraham rejoiced to see.”

This is a clear identification by Jesus of himself as

the seed promised to Abraham by Yahweh, the seed

through whom all the families of the earth would be

blessed. Jesus is claiming to be the promised Messiah.

Abraham’s greatness was based on his belief in the

promise God made to him about his seed, the Messiah to come,

and the fact that, by believing, he became the

means through which God would bring His word to

pass.

Jesus is greater than Abraham because he is the

embodiment of God’s end purpose, and the subject of

the promise which Abraham rejoiced in. This is the

staggering claim which so offended the Jews that they

attempted to stone him.

...

This article was taken from:

http://www.focusonthekingdom.org/127.pdf

Is Jesus Both God and Man? by Sean Finnegan

Is Jesus Both God and Man?

by Sean Finnegan

"…How in the world could Jesus be omnipresent if he couldn't be in two places at once?" I asked. "How could he be omniscient when he says, 'Not even the Son of Man knows the hour of his return?' How could he be omnipotent when the gospels plainly tell us that he was unable to do many miracles in his hometown?"

—Lee Strobel, Case for Christ, p. 158.

In the foyer of our church is a tract that says on its cover "Did Jesus Think He Was God?" Below, I have reproduced the chart found in it, enumerating 11 points as to why Jesus could not be God.

If Jesus is God then…

1. How could he have a beginning (Matthew 1:18; Romans 1:3), since God has always existed (Isaiah 43:13)?
2. How could he keep "increasing in wisdom" (Luke 2:52), since God’s "understanding is infinite" (Psalm 147:5)?
3. Why did he say, "I can do nothing on my own initiative" (John 5:30), whereas God "can do all things" (Job 42:2)?
4. Why did he spend "the whole night in prayer to God" (Luke 6:12), as there is never a time when God prays, but only receives prayer from others?
5. How could he learn obedience and become perfect (Hebrews 5:8 and 9), since God invented obedience and is already perfect (Matthew 5:48)?
6. Why doesn’t he know the day and hour when he will return, and yet his Father, God, does know (Matthew 24:36)?
7. Why didn’t he know who touched him (Mark 5:30), whereas God knows everything (Isaiah 46:10)?
8. How could he be tempted by the devil (Matthew 4:1), yet "God cannot be tempted by evil" (James 1:13)?
9. How could he die (Philippians 2:8), if God "alone possesses immortality" (I Timothy 6:16)?
10. How could he be in subjection to the Father [if he was GOD from and] for all eternity, (I Corinthians 15:28)?
11. Why was he asleep on the cushion (Mark 4:38), yet God never sleeps or slumbers (Psalms 121:4)?

Though these reasons may appear very conclusive to most [biblical] unitarians, they are not by most mainstream Christians. When I speak to orthodox Christians along these lines, the person often responds "You misunderstand the dual nature of Christ." Their reasoning continues, "In his divinity, he is God; but in his humanity, he is man. When he performs miracles, that is a manifestation of his deity. When he suffers or is limited in any way, that is a manifestation of his humanity." Thus, a dual nature proposition is given as the explanation as to why Jesus did not exactly match the attributes recorded of God.

But why is this doctrine necessary? Why do people believe that Jesus is God? The main reason given for why Jesus would be God is that he did things that only God can do – he raised the dead, walked on water, exorcised demons, forgave sins, and lived perfectly. Each of these will be taken in its turn.

• Jesus raised the dead. Jesus raised Lazarus, Jairus’ daughter, and the widow’s son. If raising the dead makes Jesus God, then Elijah, Elisha, and Peter are also God, because they also raised the dead.

• Jesus walked on water. Jesus confessed the source of his miracles when he said, "the Father abiding in me does His works" (John 10:25, 32, 37; 14:10) and, "the son can do nothing of himself" (John 5:19). Jesus walked on the water because God empowered him to do so. (And Peter walked on the water also.)

• Jesus exorcised demons. Often, Jesus came face to face with the spiritual forces of wickedness. He never struggled but cast them out with a few words. However, he is not unique here either, the 12 also cast out demons, as well as the 70. Besides, Jesus clearly stated, "I cast out demons by the spirit of God" (Matthew 12:28). God empowered His Messiah to do these things.

• Jesus forgave sins. When the paralyzed man was brought to Jesus, he said, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven" (Matthew 9:2). It is alleged that since all sins are ultimately an affront to God (Psalms 51:4), that only God can forgive sins. This reasoning is logical, but what if God conferred His right to forgive sins onto His earthly agent–the Messiah. "But when the crowds saw this, they were awestruck, and glorified God who had given such authority to men" (Matthew 9:8). Similarly, the disciples of Christ are authorized to forgive or retain sins (cf. John 20:23).

• Jesus lived perfectly. Adam was made in God’s image–perfect. God’s plan was for him to stay sinless, live forever, cultivate the garden of Eden, rule over the earth, and produce many children. Jesus also was made in the image of God (Colossians 3:10). He was divinely created [begotten] (Luke 1:35; Matthew 1:20) in the womb of his mother, Mary; Adam was also divinely made (Genesis 2:7). Thus, Jesus falls in the category of one who began as perfect and who needed to maintain his perfection (i.e. the second Adam)... Because of what Christ has done, we can now mortify the deeds of our old man and live as he lived (Romans 8:10, 13).

One other argument that often surfaces is that if Jesus was not God, then his sacrifice would not have been sufficient to redeem all of humanity. This assertion seems logical on its surface, but there are four problems with it.

1. Nowhere in the Bible is this stated.
2. God cannot die (I Timothy 1:17 says He is immortal).
3. A sacrifice is sufficient because God accepts it, not because its value equals the offense.
4. According to their view, only the body (the humanity) of Jesus died; his spirit (the deity) continued to live. Thus, the God portion of Jesus did not die.

Besides, is it fair to split Jesus in any way? If Jesus were fully God and fully man, then everything Jesus experienced, both his divine and human natures also experienced. For example, if I could ask them, "How can Jesus be God if he doesn’t know everything?" They would respond, "In his humanity he didn’t know, but in his divinity he is omniscient." However, this is impossible. One cannot both know everything and not know everything at the same time! If Jesus had claimed ignorance about his second coming when he was really omniscient, would this not be deceptive? To illustrate this, consider the analogy below.

Fred asked Laura for $5, and she responded, "I don’t have $5." But then 10 minutes later, Fred noticed that she was holding $5 in her hand and questioned her why she had lied. Laura replied, "When I said I didn’t have $5, I meant in my right hand I did not have it; although it is true that in my left hand I do have $5." Would this not be immediately exposed as deception? Either the person has the $5 or not. One cannot both have and not have $5 at the same time.

Jesus always spoke the truth. If he said he did not know something, then all of Jesus did not know it. If he died, then he was not immortal. If he slept on the boat, then he cannot claim to be the God Who never sleeps, etc. All of this confusion can be avoided if we understand Jesus as a human–a sinless man who, like Adam, was directly made by God but, unlike Adam, did not grasp at equality with God. There is nothing complicated about that. Jesus is a real human who really died for our sins. Our entire faith depends on this truth. It is a simple fact: if the whole Jesus did not really die, then the whole of our sins are not really [purged Heb. 1.3].

Thanks be to God who would not leave us in such a predicament.

This article was taken from:

Is Jesus Both God and Man?

AN APPEAL TO ONENESS BELIEVERS - part 2

Again, the only real difference between Oneness & Trinitarian doctrines are:

• Trinitarians believe that Jesus Christ is the incarnation of "God the Son," the second person of the Godhead
• whilst Oneness believe that Jesus Christ is the incarnation of "God the Father"
• Both believe that Jesus has a dual nature i.e. a human & divine nature
• Both believe that Jesus is 100% God & 100% man - the Godman
• So, in light of the above, both doctrines are indeed erroneous

 

What follows is a synopsis of the posts by the second writer.

The second writer's points will be in green, whilst my responses will be in black:

ONENESS BELIEVER 2

I see the Oneness view fitting the bill perfectly ...

 

MY RESPONSE:

 

1 Timothy 2:3-5 :-

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus;

That is the truth that GOD wants us to come to the knowledge of:
that there is:
ONE GOD, the Father.
Whilst Messiah Jesus, is His human Son; and is the sole mediator between the ONE GOD and mankind.

Sadly, neither trinity nor Oneness fit the bill, because both doctrines assert that Messiah Jesus is also Almighty GOD!
This is something Scripture never does!!

Not only does the apostle Paul agree with his Lord and Master, Jesus
[John 17.3];
but backs up his statement
in 1 Timothy 2.5, with 1 Cor. 8.4,6.

If Oneness were true, what Paul would have said in 1 Cor 8.6 is
"But to us there is but one God, Jesus!"

But Paul says no such thing because he clearly differentiates GOD and Jesus just as he had done throughout the NT.
The apostle Paul (in alignment with Jesus) identifies the ONE GOD as
the Father.
Then Paul goes on to identify
the one Lord as Jesus the Messiah.

Look again at
Acts 2:34-36:

34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself,
The LORD [YAHWEH] said unto my Lord,
Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified,
both Lord and Christ.

Almighty GOD, the Father, has made the man Jesus who was crucified, both Lord & Christ;
hence "that same Jesus" is now known as "our Lord Jesus Christ"

That honor goes to nobody else. GOD alone has made solely this man, "Lord."
In fulfilment of Psalm 110.1,
YAHWEH said unto my lord.

Therefore, Philippians 2:11: And that every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Therefore, Jesus the Messiah is the one Lord in fulfilment of Psalm 110.1.
Hence, Paul when speaking of things which are "one" states:

Ephesians 4:5-6: One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

So, the ONE GOD is the Father.
Whilst, Jesus, His Son,
is the Lord Messiah.
[Col 3.24, Luke 2.11]

 

ONENESS BELIEVER:

 

(1 Cor 8:4) ... there is none other God but one.

(1 Cor 8:6) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him;

and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Yes you are right that there is One God, the Father of whom and are all things and one Lord, Jesus Christ by whom are all things and we by him. Scriptures teach that God made all things through Christ.

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Notice the similarity of the usage of 'by whom’ in 1 Corin 8:6 & Heb 1:2. So here it is clear that God created the worlds through Christ His Son who is His image and exact representation. But does this mean that the man Christ Jesus the Son existed as a Son of man or Son of God before he came to earth. No, what the scriptures mean is that everything in this universe was created in perspective or to make way for the Man Christ Jesus who is the image of God, the firstborn over every creation.

At the same time scripture also attributes that all things were made by Him and for Him.

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Notice that in the above passage it says that 'by him were all things created' and it also says that 'all things were created by him' so the Deity is One and we cannot discount Christ from the Deity.

 

MY RESPONSE:

 

Back to 1 Cor. 8.6:

GOD is the Creator & source of all things hence of whom are all things.
Whilst the Lord Messiah, His Son, is the reason and the very purpose of all things, seeing that they are his inheritance;
thus, by, or rather, through whom are all things.

Heb 1.2 is not about the Genesis creation; rather it is about the ages which GOD has made in view of His Son;
predominantly the ages to come.
(Cp. Heb 2.5)
The word "worlds" in Heb 1.2 is the Greek word for ages/aeons.

So neither 1 Cor 8.6 nor Heb 1.2 are saying that all things were made BY Jesus. NO!
Rather, the sole Creator, the Father, created all things FOR His (then future) Son, seeing that His Son will be the heir of all things.
[Heb 1.2, Psa 2.8, etc]

Likewise, Col 1.16 has nothing to do with the Genesis creation. The context is actually about the future kingdom. [Col 1.13]
The all things created are thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: - all in the context of
the future kingdom i.e. the new creation to come.
(Note: no mention of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein as one would expect, if the context was the Genesis creation)


Incidentally, the first word "by" in
Col 1.16 is actually the Greek word "EN" which means "in".
The second word "by" is actually the Greek word "DIA" which means "through".
So Col 1.16 is not actually saying that anything was created "BY" Jesus, at all!

The verse actually says, e.g. NRSV:
for in him all things in heaven and on earth were created, things visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or powers-- all things have been created through him and for him.
Also ASV.

See also COLOSSIANS 1:15-20 - PREEXISTENCE OR PREEMINENCE?

ONENESS BELIEVER:

Once we understand the plan of God can we understand why the man Christ Jesus was subject to God Almighty?

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

The passage is a quote from Psalms 8

I would like to elaborate the passage more widely here as the passage says that Jesus was made little lower than the angels ...
Oneness fits the bill here perfectly as Jesus was made lower than Elohiym for the sake of suffering. There are more passages which teach this as we read on in Hebrews

...
We also cannot deny the fact that when in the flesh He was subject to God and became mortal man and hence we have scriptures showing His subjection to God the Father completely

Php 2:6-8
Here we have scripture confirming that being in the form of God, he was equal to God (This was before He came to earth as a man)

 

MY RESPONSE:

 

By the way, Psalm 8 is about mankind
[verse 4] which were made little lower than the angels [verse 5].
Beginning with Adam, GOD made man to have dominion over the works of His hands.
Jesus, the last Adam, therefore was a man

[Acts 2.22, John 8.40, 1 Tim 2.5];

which GOD Almighty is not!
[Num 23.19, Job 9.32]

Seeing therefore that Jesus is a man and not GOD, Jesus will forever be subject to the ONE GOD, his Father.

On the subject of complete subjection:
(1 Cor 15:27-28) For he [GOD] hath put all things under his [the Son's] feet. But when he [GOD] saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted [GOD is not included], which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him [GOD the Father] that put all things under him,
that God may be all in all.

The ONE GOD is excepted i.e. GOD is not included, GOD is exempt, which did put all things under Jesus the Son.
Again, a clear distinction between the ONE GOD and His subjected Son.

 

You stated concerning Phil 2.6-8,
"Here we have scripture confirming that being in the form of God, he was equal to God (This was before He came to earth as a man)"

Huh!! If Jesus existed as a being who was equal to GOD before he came to earth; that would be two co-equal almighty beings!!
That's trinitarianism, or at least, binitarianism. I thought you were Oneness!?

For a better exposition of Phil 2.6-8, please see: Adam Christology, Pre-existence & The Philippian Hymn

ONENESS BELIEVER:

 

It is important that we understand the mystery of godliness. The person was One and that is God manifesting in the flesh and we know Him as Lord Jesus Christ and Thomas was not ashamed to call him 'My Lord and My God' as we cannot know God beyond Christ.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

He is not a Godman as Trinitarians say but God manifested in the flesh.
When we read in Revelation Chapter 1 the one that spoke with John was Christ who claimed He was the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last and no man can claim this claim as Almighty God apart from Christ.

Re 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: ...

Re 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; , and, behold I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

The Sad fact is that those who do not believe that Jesus is He as he said "I am He" will die in his sins.

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

You can't discount such claims, can you?

De 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

 

MY RESPONSE:

 

Thomas, called Jesus,
"My Lord and My God!" Amen.
For an explanation please see, Jesus is God

 

As for 1 Tim. 3.16, sadly, this verse is not as clear cut as one would first believe. In fact, Jesus is not in Scripture portrayed as a Godman at all!!
Please see Concerning 1 Tim 3.16

Now, GOD alone has immortality.
[1 Tim 6.16]
That means He cannot die!
GOD CANNOT DIE!!

So Rev 1.11,17-18 is indeed speaking of Jesus as the first and the last; but obviously, in a difficult context, to when this title is used in regards to GOD Almighty. [Isa 44.6, 48.12]
(Remember, GOD Almighty cannot die;
whilst Jesus is: he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore.)

 

Also throughout the Bible, there is the Hebrew concept of "Agency"- whereby the sent acts as the agent of the sender - and in doing so, the sent is treated as if the sent is actually the sender.
That is, although the two are distinct, the sent agent is treated as if he is identical to the sender. - For more info on this concept please see Divine Agency in the Scriptures.

 

The above link will show many examples of this concept. Therefore, in similar fashion, when Jesus says, "I am the first and the last", he does not mean that he is actually Almighty GOD. Instead,

Jesus means that he is the agent of Almighty GOD - he is speaking for the immortal GOD.

 

Concerning John 8.24, read the very next verse.

John 8:25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them,
Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

Two things:

1) If Jesus was claiming to be Almighty GOD in verse 24, as you assert. Why would the people then ask in the very next verse, "Who are you?"
It ought to be obvious, if Jesus apparently just claimed to be GOD!!

2) Now note Jesus' response in verse 25.
My question: Where did Jesus anywhere in the Gospels, from the beginning of his ministry right up to John 8.25, ever claim to be GOD Almighty? WHERE??
Remember, he said, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

Rather, Jesus claimed to be GOD's Son, the light of the world, the one promised to be sent by GOD, the one spoken of by Moses, etc.
And unless someone believes Jesus is, who he claimed to be, that is, the Messiah; such a one will die in their sins.

So, Jesus never ever claimed to be Almighty GOD from the beginning!!

 

ONENESS BELIEVER:

 

Moreover we have this testimony that there was a need for the 'testator' to die. It doesn't make sense that God creates a man to die for us. This is no love at all but the love of God is manifested in that He took the form of man and humbled Himself to bring many sons to glory. This is the clear teaching of the scriptures.

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

 

 

MY RESPONSE:

 

Concerning Heb 9.16-17 (testament/covenant - same Greek word):

Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Hebrews 7:21  (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord [GOD ALMIGHTY] sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.


Hebrews 9:11-24:

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. 13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: 14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. 23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:


Therefore, the testator did indeed die? Who then is the testator?
The man Jesus, the sole mediator of the new covenant/testament; the one whom the living GOD appointed forever an high priest.

(A priest cannot be identical to the One he ministers to!
High Priests are taken from among men and minister the things pertaining to God
- Hebrews 2.17, 5.1.
Jesus is called of GOD to be an High Priest forever!
[Hebrews 5.1,5,10]
He cannot therefore himself be the living GOD).

After GOD Almighty raised the dead Jesus, from the dead, what happened next?
Jesus entered into Heaven itself, into the very presence of the ONE GOD Himself.

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

So Jesus is the Son of GOD who is now in the presence of GOD.
It is that simple.

 

ONENESS BELIEVER:

 

Paul identified Christ as 'that Spirit'. You have to deny all these scriptures to make a straw man argument showing Christ as a created being rather than God manifesting in flesh.

2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

MY RESPONSE:

Concerning 2 Cor 3.14, Christ as 'that Spirit'. Amen!
The apostle Paul is contrasting Moses, who had a veil upon his face; with Christ, in whom the veil, which blinds people today, can be done away. Amen!!
So if one turns to the Lord Jesus, the veil shall be taken away. Amen!
Thus, ...
Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.


So,  ...

Jesus of Nazareth, is the virginally begotten, sinless, human,
son of the ONE GOD,
who began his existence in the womb of his mother [Luke 1.35];
He grew in the grace & the wisdom of the ONE GOD. [Luke 2.40]
He died for our sins. After three days, GOD Almighty, the ONE GOD, raised him from the dead, immortalized & highly exalted him,
made him 'Lord', and set him at His own right hand.
Therefore, Jesus is a High Priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. [Hebrews 6.20, 8.1]
Jesus is now in Heaven itself, in the very presence of the ONE GOD Himself.

It is that simple!
ONE GOD, the Father.
The man, the Lord Jesus Christ,
is His Son, i.e.
the Son of the Father.
[2 John 3]

This scriptural definition fits the bill perfectly!

Jesus is a glorified man at the right hand of the ONE GOD;
the day will come when Almighty GOD will send Jesus back to earth, to establish the Kingdom at his Coming.
[Acts 3.19-20]

Hence the Apostle Paul's words:

1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves show of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and
how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead,
even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of the living and true GOD! Amen!

AN APPEAL TO ONENESS BELIEVERS - part 1

I came across some posts by two different Oneness believers who were sharing their beliefs.

Now, the only real difference between Oneness & Trinitarian doctrines are:

• Trinitarians believe that Jesus Christ is the incarnation of "God the Son," the second person of the Godhead
• whilst Oneness believe that Jesus Christ is the incarnation of "God the Father"
• Both believe that Jesus has a dual nature i.e. a human & divine nature
• Both believe that Jesus is 100% God & 100% man - the Godman
• So, in light of the above, both doctrines are indeed erroneous

What follows is a synopsis of the posts by both writers which I came across.

Their points will be in green, whilst my responses will be in black:

ONENESS BELIEVER 1

The first writer was attempting to reconcile the many NT statements which speak about grace & peace being from BOTH God the Father AND the His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ;
these verses are obviously speaking about TWO distinct, individual beings.
Thus the writer then attempts to reconcile these statements with Oneness theology :-

"Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ:
Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 1:1)

This scripture is just an example of what I am trying to explain because every book after the book of Acts in the Bible has an introduction such as this ... that states something along these lines,
"Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ." ...
 according to John 10:30,"I and my Father are one." thus giving me the conclusion that Jesus, who was talking to his disciples, is the same as the Father, thus they are ONE; NOT TWO SEPARATE BEINGS.

 

MY RESPONSE:

I suggest you take another look at John 10.30
Then compare it with John 17.11,21-22.
Jesus was not stating that he was the same as the Father.
Otherwise, you would have to conclude that his disciples are the same as the Father!! Why?

John 17.11 ... that they may be one, as we are.
John 17.22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

No! Just as the disciples are separate beings from the Father (and Christ); likewise Christ is separate from GOD his Father.
Jesus is 'One' with the Father in unity, in will & purpose. Jesus prayed that his disciples would be likewise.

The reason therefore, why "every book after the book of Acts in the Bible has an introduction such as this;" is because:
GOD our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ are indeed TWO SEPARATE BEINGS!!
However, ONE is Almighty GOD whilst the other is NOT!

That is, there is solely ONE GOD, the Father.
[1 Cor 8.4,6]
The Lord Jesus the Messiah identified his Father as the only true GOD.
[John 17.3]

The man Christ Jesus in contrast is the one mediator between the ONE GOD and mankind.
Thus 1 Tim 2.5 clearly shows the distinction between these TWO SEPARATE BEINGS!!
ONE is GOD, the Father; whilst the other, is the man Christ Jesus; hence:

(1 Cor 8:4) ... that there is none other God but one.
(1 Cor 8:6) But to us there is but one God, the Father,
of whom are all things, and we in him;
and one Lord, Jesus Christ,
by whom are all things, and we by him.

(John 17:1) These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, ...
(John 17:3) And this is life eternal,
that they might know thee the only true God,
and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Hence when Jesus quoted Deut 6.4 as the greatest commandment before a Jewish scribe (Mark 12.29ff); it ought to be obvious that Jesus was not identifying himself as the ONE GOD; and neither did the scribe think that either!
Rather, they both agreed that their GOD was the ONE GOD we ought to love! (Compare John 4.22)
Jesus also commended the scribe's response. [Mark 12.34]

So before Jesus ascended into Heaven, he declared:
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them,
I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Then Hebrews 9.24 declares: For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true;
but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

And whilst in Heaven, Jesus declared: Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God,
and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God,
and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem,
which cometh down out of heaven from my God: ...

And Paul speaking about Christ's return, declared: 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10
For they themselves show of us what manner of entering in we had unto you,
and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus,
which delivered us from the wrath to come.

The distinction and separation of these Two Beings is consistent throughout all the NT scriptures.
There is solely ONE GOD, the Father, the only true GOD.

Whilst the man Jesus of Nazareth is the one man whom the ONE GOD made both Lord and Christ;
hence he is the One Lord [Acts 2.36, 1 Cor 8.6, Eph 4.5]

YAHWEH in contrast is the One God and Father of all.
[Eph 4.6]

Hence, Phil 2.10-11:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Again, clear distinction and separation:
ONE Being is Almighty GOD whilst the other being is not!

ONENESS BELIEVER:

"For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power" (1 Corinthians 2:2-5)

I want to make it clear. JESUS is GOD. (No distinctions of persons and no pluralities)

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)

That Word being Jesus and that Jesus being God
"One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." (Ephesians 4:5-6)

There is only ONE LORD, ONE FAITH AND ONE BAPTISM. ONE God and Father of all. Jesus Christ is LORD!!!!

 

MY RESPONSE:

Indeed there is solely ONE GOD - (No distinctions of persons and no pluralities)

And who is this ONE GOD?

(John 17:1) These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, ...
(John 17:3) And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

(1 Cor 8:4) ... that there is none other God but one.
(1 Cor 8:6) But to us there is but one God, the Father, ...

Jesus, our Lord and Master, identifies the Father, his Father, as the only true GOD.
And the Apostles concur with Jesus their Lord.

So then, who is Jesus?

Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee,
but my Father which is in heaven.

(1 Tim 2:5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus;

It is that simple! There is solely ONE GOD, the Father.
Jesus is the ONE GOD's human Son;
who was crucified, died for our sins;
whom Almighty GOD raised from the dead, highly exalted him,
and made him both Lord and Christ
[Acts 2.36]
to the ONE GOD's glory.
[Phil 2.11]

So the Father is the LORD GOD;
whilst His Son is the Lord Messiah
[Col 3.24, Luke 2.11]

GOD Almighty alone has immortality.
[1 Tim 6.16]
That means He cannot die! GOD CANNOT DIE!! Much less be crucified.
Rather, it was Jesus the Messiah, crucified,
who the apostle Paul desired to know? 1 Cor 2.2
And how did Paul identify Jesus?
Look again at 1 Tim 2.5

Also:
Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. 20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God. 21 But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests? 22 But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus,
proving that this is very Christ.


Wow! Paul does NOT straightway go about preaching that Jesus is GOD!! Even after having an amazing encounter with him!!
Rather, straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God!!

Even after some time, maybe even months or years, what does Paul say?

Acts 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. 23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription,
TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein,
seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth,
(cp. Matt 11.25, Luke 10.21)
dwelleth not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness
by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

That man! That Man! That MAN!
That MAN whom GOD, the Creator and Lord of heaven and earth, hath ordained and raised from the dead!!

The apostle Paul does not identify Jesus as the UNKNOWN GOD! He does not declare to the Athenians that Jesus is the God that made the world and all things therein.
Rather, he declares to the Athenians: that man whom GOD raised from the dead; GOD has ordained this man to be the Judge. (Compare the apostle Peter's consistent message in Acts 10.38-43)

These words are entirely consistent to what the apostle Paul said in 1 Cor 8.4,6; & 1 Timothy 2.5.

So yes, the ONE GOD, the Father, is identified in Eph. 4.6; whilst the one man whom the ONE GOD made Lord is identified in Eph 4.5. Hence Jesus is the one Lord.

The ONE GOD is still (and will always be) the GOD and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[2 Cor 11.31, Eph 1.3, Col 1.3, 1 Pet 1.3]

Compare (John 20:17) ... I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
with Revelation 3:12
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

The Lord Jesus has a GOD! If he has a GOD, then it means he himself is NOT GOD!

There can only be ONE GOD!!! And that ONE GOD cannot therefore be Jesus (seeing that Jesus has a God)!
Rather, the ONE GOD is Jesus' Father; and the ONE GOD is also his (Jesus') GOD!!

Therefore, John 1.1 is about GOD's word!!
(Jesus is not even mentioned!!)

Everything came into being by GOD's word; that is, GOD spoke and IT was done.

Compare Psalms 33:6 By the word of YAHWEH were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 9 For he spake, and it was done ; he commanded, and it stood fast.

In the fulness of time [Gal 4.4] therefore, GOD's word was made flesh [John 1.14]
resulting in the conception of Jesus of Nazareth, GOD's Son. [Luke 1.35]

So who is Jesus? He is GOD's word made flesh. Amen!! That's what the apostle John is declaring.
In fact, what was the purpose of the apostle John's Gospel?

John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Let me conclude with the words of the apostle Paul:

1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves show of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Again, the apostle Paul is consistent with his understanding of who GOD and Jesus is.

There is solely ONE living and true God!
Whilst, Jesus is the ONE living and true GOD's Son, whom the ONE GOD raised from the dead!

This is the true Apostles' doctrine from the Scriptures, concerning who GOD and Jesus is.

ONE GOD, the Father.
ONE man, the Lord Jesus the Messiah,
the Son of the Father.
[2 John 3]